Dialogue XI

Bhaktha: Swami! I have one doubt; can I ask you?
Swami: Certainly, Why do you say, 'Can I ask you'?

Bhaktha: Some people describe Brahmam as Asthi-Bhaati-Priyam; what does it mean? How are these related to Brahmam?
Swami: Is that the doubt? Asthi means 'that which is'; Bhaati means 'that which shines'; Priyam means - of course, you know it, don't you?... pleasing, desirable, capable of satisfying. All that is Priyam to you is Brahmam!

If you dearly love a dog, that dog too is Brahmam! The dog has a name and form. If you remove both your name and form and its name and form, then Brahmam alone remains. Name and form are 'past obstructions', Bhoutha-prathibandha. The absence of name and form is Brahmam. In all the multifold names and forms, there is inherent just one Brahmam. You have to recognise that is-ness in all. The 'is-ness' is Asthi, the knowledge of the knower is the Bhaati, the effulgence, the shining splendour. That too is Brahmam.

There is a yearning, isn't it, to see it, experience it, to seek for it? This is due to the Priyam, the attraction, the charm. These three are basically characteristic of Brahmam, my dear boy!

Bhaktha: What is this Satchidananda they speak of?
Swami: Atma itself if known as Sat-Chit-Ananda, because its nature is Asthi-Bhaati-Priyam.

Bhaktha: Swami, since 'loveableness', Priyam, is also its nature, should not everything be loveable? But, scorpions, snakes and wild animals, these do not evoke love!
Swami: You may not love them. But they love each other, don't they? A thief likes another thief; a devotee likes another devotee; each loves his own kind.

Bhaktha: I do not understand all this clearly, Swami. Tell me some example, if there is any, of this Asthi-Bhaati-Priyam, from the present world?
Swami: My dear boy; why say, 'if there is any'? When all is Brahmam, which one is not an example of that! Now, you go to a picture. The picture exists on the screen; it persists, it is. That is 'Asthi'. Who sees it and understands it? You. So it is 'Bhaati'. The names and forms, which are Priyam, loveable, come and go. Even if you set them aside without being deluded by them, the screen is always there. One point has to be noted here. The pictures fall on the screen, by means of a beam of light projected through a small slit in the wall of the machine room. But, if it comes from the entire room without the slit, escaping from that limitation, the figures will not be seen! The screen will be fully bathed in light! So too, if the world is seen through the small slit of one's mind, the manifold multicolored creation will be cognisable. If the floodlight of Atmajnana is poured, and you see it through the Atma, it will be one unlimited light and no individual picture can be cognised. That is to say, all will be cognised as the one indivisible Brahmam, do you understand?

Bhaktha: I have understood it clearly, Swami. Now I know what is meant by the 'obstruction of the past'. What are 'the obstructions of the present?
Swami: Good, I shall tell you. The obstructions of the present are of four types: attachment to sense objects, cynical criticism, dullness of understanding, and absurd conceit. The first is the case of attachment to objects that attract the senses. The second makes men discover wrong meanings in the teachings of the Guru. The third causes confusion, because things explained by the Guru are not grasped at all. The last obstruction makes one feel that one is a great scholar, Pundit, or ascetic, mistaking the body and the senses for the Atma.

Bhaktha: And the 'obstructions of the future'?
Swami: Oh! They come always through sinful deeds. They come and obstruct unawares!

Bhaktha: How are we to meet them, Swami?
Swami: It is not possible for all. The aspirant can to some extent be cognisant of the approaching wrong and its wiles. It creates a desire, which puts on the cloak of want. Then you must recognise it as an 'obstruction of the future'. It is difficult to be forewarned like this as the result of the effort of one single life. It may take many births to acquire this education.

Bhaktha: Are there any who have so learnt it?
Swami: Why, there are. The scriptures speak of Bharatha and Vasudeva; Bharatha required two or three births; Vasudeva had to be born once.

Bhaktha: That means these three obstructions cannot be overcome except after many lives. Can we not succeed without all that bother?
Swami: Why? The aspirant can, by reasoning out the nature of these three, escape from being worried by them. Otherwise, it may take many lives.

Bhaktha: Swami, how to get over the 'obstructions of the present'?
Swami: There is a way for this also. Through Karma, the appropriate Karma! There is no obstruction that cannot be surmounted. Attachment to sense-objects can be removed by Sama. Dama, Uparathi, Thithiksha, by developing, purity, self-control, withdrawal of desires and the ability to suffer. Dullness of understanding can be removed by listening again and again. Constant meditation on the things heard will abolish the habit of cynical criticism. All absurd conceit will vanish through the teachings one imbibes.

Bhaktha: Swami, to master all this seems impossible for everyone! To make it easy for all, tell me which is important?
Swami: My dear fellow, to know a thing, Vijnana is necessary. Ajnana makes one ignorant, don't you know?

Bhaktha: So many people say so many things about this Vijnana and this Ajnana. What is the basic thing about this Vijnana and this Ajnana. What is the basic thing behind both, tell me.

Swami: Now you have come again to the very first step. Ajnana is the mental attitude that has reference to the external object and Vijnana is the mental attitude that has reference to the internal subject. Ajnana is known also as Manas and Chiththam. When the activity and attitude turn inwards, they are called Buddhi and Anthahkaranam.

Bhaktha: Some say that the Jnani will have only two things, the desire to attain the other world and the burden of the past Karma: is that true?
Swami: Both the Jnani and the Ajnani will have desire, absence of desire for the other world, and the burden of past Karma, all in equal measure. Their experiences also will be in equal measure. Only, the Jnani will not have the consciousness that he is the doer; so, he will not be bound. The Ajnani is conscious that he is the doer and so he gets bound. This is the distinction. I have already told you, haven't I, that 'the mind' is the cause of bondage as well as of liberation? The mind is the cause of everything.

Bhaktha: Mind, mind, they keep on saying. What is it? What is its form?
Swami: "Cognition", "understanding" is its form. If you know the basis of that knowing, there will be no bondage at all!

Bhaktha: What is the basis?
Swami: The basis is what you refer to as I. Seeking for the I, if you are in that I state, however many "understandings" come or do not come, you will remain unaffected.

Bhaktha: Right. That is very good, Swami. Please make all this soak into our brains, so that we may realise the purpose of our lives... I shall take leave, Swami.
Swami: Do so. Depart gladly and return later. Take my blessings with you.